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Can we pls Talk about Terms and Conditions [SHORT!!!]
  #1  
Unread 05-31-2010, 02:24 PM
scuter Offline
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Default Can we pls Talk about Terms and Conditions [SHORT!!!]

The Palace Group's terms. Which I painstakingly demolished one by one in the long thread.

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Originally Posted by mojo View Post
Scuter, that is incredibly impossible to read. There is no way I can read all of that doll.
My point. Exactly.

That's what Spin Palace is counting on....for 99% of players to start reading the insanity and quickly stop because it's so clearly painful nonsense.

And, hidden WAY down at the bottom of all the insanity, are Terms which have no functional reason except for allowing them to steal winnings.

I prove this fact with logic that is irrefutable. In the long thread.

The logic? They already use the MGV automation which enables them to cap bet sizing during play with promotions. So what possible reason can they have to include a secondary fine print term that caps bet sizing to as low as $3?

------

If you request their justifications regarding their 'requirement' of this fine print Term - considering the fact they already code limits into the automated game max coin / bet sizes....they will refuse to respond.

All they will say [all they CAN say - because even a blind man understands the very simple nature of this rogue] is "Players who play automatically agree to our terms."

Tight defence argument.

------

I'd be interested in getting some feedback on this issue, if anyone is willing to offer any.....
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  #2  
Unread 05-31-2010, 04:35 PM
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I am going to read your other post Here scuter. Thanks for the short version too. I just haven't been able too but am around today.

Quote:
The logic? They already use the MGV automation which enables them to cap bet sizing during play with promotions. So what possible reason can they have to include a secondary fine print term that caps bet sizing to as low as $3?
I think I have heard this before. Going to look around.
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  #3  
Unread 05-31-2010, 06:09 PM
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This is NOT just limited to the gambling industry but is the norm for terms and conditions of MANY industries....

And this is not limited to just the internet.

Consider almost any legal documment....to which you have to agree to a specified set of terms.

Credit card agreement, bank account agreement, warranty policy for that $1000 appliance you just bought, Rental Car agreement, home rental lease, mortgage agreement, car purchase agreement....

When is the last time you read (and understood) a credit card agreement?

Rick
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  #4  
Unread 05-31-2010, 06:12 PM
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Now, my post above does NOT mean I do not agree with the general consensus that the terms and conditions of most casinos are too vague at times, and I would fully support many of them giving a more thorough break down in layman's terms of what they mean....

Will this ever happen?

Not sure really, but to be honest, even regulation in the US will not fix this over-night....and in fact the terms may even get more jumbled, longer and contain even more legal-ease then they do now......

Rick
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  #5  
Unread 05-31-2010, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
This is NOT just limited to the gambling industry but is the norm for terms and conditions of MANY industries....

And this is not limited to just the internet.

Consider almost any legal documment....to which you have to agree to a specified set of terms.

Credit card agreement, bank account agreement, warranty policy for that $1000 appliance you just bought, Rental Car agreement, home rental lease, mortgage agreement, car purchase agreement....

When is the last time you read (and understood) a credit card agreement?

Rick
1. Nonsense. There is no court [not even a Banana Court like CM Forum] where such a contract would be considered anything but what it is: complete and utter fraudulent nonsense designed to steal money from players who can't read through the long list of contradictory pidgin English terms - many of which would be instantly struck down as invalid by any judiciary in the first world. And probably by most in the 3rd world.

Did you even read the T/C I painstakingly demolished?

The last time I read [I could understand them at 13 but then I was a unique child] a CC agreement was a year or two ago. I can post one for you if you like - you could contrast and compare the two. You might be shocked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
Now, my post above does NOT mean I do not agree with the general consensus that the terms and conditions of most casinos are too vague at times, and I would fully support many of them giving a more thorough break down in layman's terms of what they mean....

Will this ever happen?

Not sure really, but to be honest, even regulation in the US will not fix this over-night....and in fact the terms may even get more jumbled, longer and contain even more legal-ease then they do now......

Rick
You missed the entire point - every single point.

It's not that you're not in the ballpark, you're not in the state.

The point is not that the T/C are vague or that most would require a layman's translation.

The point is not that the T/C are written in legalese when there is absolutely no reason they should be - the T/C are not legal documents and can never be contested in any judicial hearing.

The point, Rick, the POINT is:

The T/C are verbal diarrhoea written in pidgin English, usually making NO sense whatever, and continually REPETITIVE [one Term was repeated EIGHT (8) times in the single document], and continually inclusive of F YOU terms which make EVERY OTHER term redundant.

And the point Rick, the point you missed is, the reason for the above is that they can insert redundant Terms which STEAL winnings off innocent players. Terms which I have PROVED to be redundant by pointing out they ALREADY use the automation in the system to cap wagering limits.

You will forgive me if I'm terse, I'm sure. Once you refresh yourself with the points you seem to have skipped over.
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  #6  
Unread 05-31-2010, 07:26 PM
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Scuter,

I think YOU missed the point.

The point is that most of us here want to help make the industry better, not sit back and bitch about it.

For you to sit back and say I missed the point when I agreed with the consensus about the fact that most terms are bloated and not written for the layman to understand, and the point I ADDED to that was that it is likely to NEVER change.....but maybe with a thorough discussion and less BS maybe we could convince some operators to actually consider adding explanation pages or maybe a breakdown with bullet popints or something that might help novice players understand them better.

Recently there was a discussion about the terms at a specific casino. The terms there were actually contained on 2 different pages, and through that discussion the operator actually decided to re do their terms, and link the different pages so that players would at leats have more opportunity to see them.

Now this wasn't the perfect solution, but I personally think it was progress....

As a side note, I donj't recall if that was done yet, but I do know it was in progress last I checked.

Rick
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  #7  
Unread 05-31-2010, 11:04 PM
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Honourable pursuit Scuter, but utterly unwinnable. The genaral terms are written by lawyers in an attempt to cover all known, and unknown eventualities. You agreed to the similar before you posted here, when you bought your pc, powered up Firefox and so on.

More important to the player are promotional terms, game restrictions, specific cashout restrictions.

If you want to tear those to shreds you have my full support.
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  #8  
Unread 05-31-2010, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by universal4 View Post
Scuter,

I think YOU missed the point.

The point is that most of us here want to help make the industry better, not sit back and bitch about it.

For you to sit back and say I missed the point when I agreed with the consensus about the fact that most terms are bloated and not written for the layman to understand, and the point I ADDED to that was that it is likely to NEVER change.....but maybe with a thorough discussion and less BS maybe we could convince some operators to actually consider adding explanation pages or maybe a breakdown with bullet popints or something that might help novice players understand them better.
Hi Rick - You have MISSED the point again!

The point is that the terms are not written for a LAWYER to understand. They are written by non-English speaking imbeciles and they are hugely bloated and all this is done intentionally. To deter players from making it all the way down to the bottom - to where the Terms include ridiculous lines such as "The Casino's decision is final. We can close your account for any reason. We can confiscate your funds for any reason. We can keep doing this because no one in this industry seems to have a problem with it."

Now - if you wanted to make the industry better - you could start by getting the point, and actively taking steps to negate this blatant rogue action. My posting about this is not "bitching" - it's attempting to show people who have been in this industry for years, that rogue is occurring right under their noses. And if they don't seem to care, then I am able to determine who is a genuine Player Advocate and who is simply faking it whilst they facilitate and promote rogue casinos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyl View Post
Honourable pursuit Scuter, but utterly unwinnable. The genaral terms are written by lawyers in an attempt to cover all known, and unknown eventualities. You agreed to the similar before you posted here, when you bought your pc, powered up Firefox and so on.

More important to the player are promotional terms, game restrictions, specific cashout restrictions.

If you want to tear those to shreds you have my full support.
If you think the Spin Palace T/C were written by lawyers....you're kidding me right? Show that T/C to a contract lawyer and he will have a conniption or a laughing fit.

And part of my entire POINT - which some people are struggling to get - is that the Terms cannot be ever heard in a court of law or any kind of judiciary hearing at all. So there is no point for "all known, and unknown eventualities" to even be covered. The casino has all the $ - only the player needs to be protected.
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  #9  
Unread 05-31-2010, 11:42 PM
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Written by lawyers. Written by monkeys. Makes no odds to me, because the whole lot need rewriting and re-evaluating on multiple levels.

If you can bring that about, do so.

Preaching to the converted. Or indeed trying to get some random webmaster called Uni on a forum to agree with you, won't change a fullstop on the terms pages of even the most player friendly of casinos..
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  #10  
Unread 05-31-2010, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scuter View Post
The T/C are verbal diarrhoea written in pidgin English, usually making NO sense whatever, and continually REPETITIVE [one Term was repeated EIGHT (8) times in the single document], and continually inclusive of F YOU terms which make EVERY OTHER term redundant.
Of course. Online casino T & C are rarely written for any reason other than to rip off the player. Slots Oasis, who apparently can't understand that "not counting" is not the same as "restricted" is one example. Casino Rewards, which apparently sees nothing wrong in hiding promo-specific terms within the general terms, and has resisted tooth and nail all attempts to persuade them otherwise, is another. And their forum rep, who works for crooks and is by definition the same as far as I'm concerned, is held up as a Mother Theresa of wonderfulness.

And almost everyone promotes them all.

Welcome to the gambling industry, the bottom rung of the ethics ladder, squinting its eyes as it looks up to that relatively speaking paragon of virtue, the pornography industry, and sitting alongside the paedophiles and the child groomers.

Tell me something else new.
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